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Started in 1980, retired in 2004 REBEL was baptized into ProDeo, latin for gratis according to Dutch tradition.

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Dear chess programmer,

Due to popular alternatives on the internet (TCEC | CCT) classic old style (off-line) programmer tournaments (CSVN and ICGA to name a few) where programmers gather somewhere in the world to compete and interact socially is in decline.

With this poll I would like to measure the interest among chess programmers if such tournaments still have a reasonable future. What are the wishes, what are the obstacles, what would convince you as a chess programmers to participate.

The gathered data will be important for tournament organizers like the CSVN and the ICGA.
Your email address will be held strictly confidential and only used for verification purposes in case there is doubt on your identity.

Thanks so much for your support on this initiative.

Ed Schröder 
February, 2014

 


 

                                                                     ICGA

                                                      world championship
 

1. I currently don't plan to attend the world championship because: 

It's too expensive, money and|or timewise.
I don't agree with the rules, please specify in the comment section.

 The tournament does not have my interest.
 Other, please specify in the comment section below.
 

   Programmer  Program

 Comments

1

 Ed Schroder Rebel | ProDeo Other: I played enough of them.

2

 Sven Schüle KnockOut, Surprise, Femto Other: my engines are a couple of hundreds of Elo points too weak for this tournament.

3

 Charles Roberson NoonianChess, Ares, Telepath Too expensive.

4

 Luca Lissandrello Neurone Too expensive.

5

 Marcel van Kervinck Rookie Too expensive.

6

 Miguel A. Ballicora Gaviota Too expensive.

7

 Aart Bik BikJump and Chess for Android Other: Would like to participate one day, but my engine is simply too weak at present.

8

 Steve Webber Raptor Too expensive.

9

 Volker Annuss Hermann, Arminius Too expensive.

10

 Edsel Apostol Hannibal Too expensive.

11

 Matthias Gemuh ChessGUI, BigLion No interest.

12

 Matthias Hartwich Bäuerchen Too Expensive.

 

 


2a. In principle I am not against participation.
 The organizers may contact me.

 I prefer to contact the organizers myself when I am ready.

 

   Programmer  Program

 Comments

 1  Sven Schüle KnockOut, Surprise, Femto I prefer to contact the organizers myself.
 2  Charles Roberson NoonianChess, Ares, Telepath The organizers may contact me.
 3  Luca Lissandrello Neurone The organizers may contact me.
 4  Marcel van Kervinck Rookie I prefer to contact the organizers myself.
 5  Miguel A. Ballicora Gaviota The organizers may contact me.
 6  Aart Bik BikJump and Chess for Android The organizers may contact me.
 7  Steve Webber Raptor The organizers may contact me.
 8  Volker Annuss Hermann, Arminius The organizers may contact me.
 9  Matthias Gemuh ChessGUI, BigLion I prefer to contact the organizers myself.
 10  Matthias Hartwich Bäuerchen I prefer to contact the organizers myself.


 

 

2b. For CCRL | CEGT top-10-15 programs only, would you attend if your program has a serious chance for a top-3 ranking, maybe even winning?

 The organizers may contact me.

 I prefer to contact the organizers myself when I am ready.

 

   Programmer  Program

 Comments

 1  Edsel Apostol  Hannibal  I prefer to contact the organizers myself.
 2      


 

 

3. If the ICGA would allow (just) one derivative of a freeware open source would that have your support?
 Yes

 No

 

   Programmer  Program

 Comments

 1  Ed Schroder Rebel | ProDeo  Yes
 2  Sven Schüle KnockOut, Surprise, Femto  Yes
 3  Charles Roberson NoonianChess, Ares, Telepath  No
 4  Luca Lissandrello Neurone  No
 5  Marcel van Kervinck Rookie  Yes
 6  Miguel A. Ballicora Gaviota  Yes
 7  Aart Bik BikJump and Chess for Android  Yes
 8  Steve Webber Raptor  Yes
 9  Volker Annuss Hermann, Arminius  Yes
10  Edsel Apostol Hannibal  Yes
11  Matthias Gemuh ChessGUI, BigLion  No
12  Matthias Hartwich Bäuerchen  Yes


 

 

4. What if the ICGA would allow more than one derivative of a freeware open source PROVIDED they 1) have added a considerable amount of elo (say 50-100 elo minimum) AND 2) obviously have a different playing style measured by the current (or improved) similarity tester. Are you in favor to modernize the world championship in this way?

 Yes

 No

Other, please specify your views in comments section.

 
   Programmer  Program

 Comments

 1  Ed Schroder Rebel | ProDeo Yes, elo improvement and similarity procedure and percentage decided by the Tournament director.
 2  Sven Schüle KnockOut, Surprise, Femto Other: this topic is a bit too complex for a poll. I'll try to give a short answer nevertheless:

- Adding Elo or not is irrelevant in my eyes, more relevance should have criteria like "authors of derivative are known", "original author explicitly accepts the derivative (i.e. no legal issues or similar)", "authors are willing and able to provide the source on demand".

- For these reasons I would still disallow the whole "Ippolit" family, including Houdini, Bouquet, Fire, etc. - there is no known "original author" who could state that he accepts any of these derivatives.

- I also think that the similarity tester should not be used for this purpose. I have the impression that the results it produces are strongly influenced by the evaluation function. A possible improvement of the tool would be to include N plies of the PVs into the measurement, not just the move that is played.
 3 Charles Roberson NoonianChess, Ares, Telepath

No.

 

The big problem today is that the ICGA and such have become obsolete in theory. Many people look at CCRL et al and think that their numbers are more statistically significant. However, they are not. Many of us, code our programs to play certain playing styles better than other styles, thus certain opening books favor us or disfavor us. CCRL et al force the opening books which hurts those of us that have that preference. Also, they cut the games so early that many endgame problems/bugs are missed. I've seen high rated CCRL engines lose in ACCA events due to that.

 4 Luca Lissandrello Neurone

No.

 5 Marcel van Kervinck Rookie

Yes.

 6 Miguel A. Ballicora Gaviota

Yes.

 

Not sure that should be the exact criteria, but something along that line should be tried, as much as I dislike it personally. So I voted yes.

 7 Aart Bik BikJump and Chess for Android

Other: I am not against derivatives as long as authors are honest about it and follow all rules attached to the original work. Personally I enjoy writing an original engine much more, but I can see that others are puzzled why I would want to work on a weak engine.

 8 Steve Webber Raptor

Yes.

 9 Volker Annuss Hermann, Arminius

Other: I go with Sven Schüle.

It also might be interesting to allow derivatives that have implemented new unique ideas even if they lose ELO compared to the original.

10 Edsel Apostol Hannibal

Other: It's best I think to limit the derivatives to one per family and chose only the best derivative from that family.

11 Matthias Gemuh ChessGUI, BigLion

Yes.

12 Matthias Hartwich Bäuerchen

No.


 

Your comments


 

 


 

                                                                            CSVN

 

The questions for the CSVN are more simple because they follow a less strict policy than the ICGA as question 4 and 5 are more or less answered positively.

 

1. I currently don't plan to attend a CSVN tournament because: 

It's too expensive, money and|or timewise.
 The tournament does not have my interest.
 I don't agree with the (modern) rules.

 Other, please specify below.

 

   Programmer  Program

 Comments

 1  Ed Schroder  Rebel | ProDeo  Other, I played enough of them.
 2  Charles Roberson NoonianChess, Ares, Telepath  Too Expensive.
 3  Luca Lissandrello  Neurone  Too Expensive.
 4  Miguel A. Ballicora  Gaviota  Too Expensive.
 5  Aart Bik BikJump and Chess for Android Other: Would like to participate one day, but my engine is simply too weak at present.
 6  Steve Webber Raptor Too Expensive.
 7  Edsel Apostol Hannibal Too Expensive.
 8  Matthias Gemuh ChessGUI, BigLion No interest.
 9  Matthias Hartwich Bäuerchen Too Expensive.

 

 

2. In principle I am not against participation.
 The organizers may contact me.

 I prefer to contact the organizers myself when I am ready.

 

   Programmer  Program

 Comments

 1  Sven Schüle KnockOut, Surprise, Femto  I prefer to contact the organizers myself.
 2  Charles Roberson NoonianChess, Ares, Telepath

The organizers may contact me.

 

To continue my comment under the ICGA section, CCRL et al claim that their methods finds the better analysis engine. I believe this is not true. The best analysis engine is personal, because such an analysis engine needs to fit your personal playing style. Sure positional players need a tactical analysis, but they also need positional analysis more so than tactical players.

 3  Luca Lissandrello Neurone

The organizers may contact me.

 4  Marcel van Kervinck Rookie

I prefer to contact the organizers myself.

 5  Miguel A. Ballicora Gaviota

The organizers may contact me.

 

It is a matter of finding the opportunity for me.

 6  Aart Bik BikJump and Chess for Android

The organizers may contact me.

 7  Steve Webber Raptor

The organizers may contact me.

 8  Volker Annuss Hermann, Arminius

The organizers may contact me.

 9  Edsel Apostol Hannibal

I prefer to contact the organizers myself.

10  Matthias Gemuh ChessGUI, BigLion

I prefer to contact the organizers myself.

11  Matthias Hartwich Bäuerchen

I prefer to contact the organizers myself.


 

Your comments


 

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Copyright ® 2014  Ed Schröder