Wisdom is knowing how

   little we know -- Socrates

About Company

Started in 1980, retired in 2004 REBEL was baptized into ProDeo, latin for gratis according to Dutch tradition.

Other Information

 

   Rybka-ICGA fiasco

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

    External links

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Email exchange between David Levy and Vasik Rajlich

As found on the ICGA website and also contributed by Rajlich.

 

From: David Levy

Subject: Fruit and Rybka

To: "Vasik Rajlich"

Cc: "Jaap van den Herik",  "Hiroyuki Iida"

Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 10:58 PM

Hi Vas, 

 

The ICGA would be very interested to see your comments on this.

 

https://webspace.utexas.edu/zzw57/rtc/eval/eval.html

 

Best,

David

 



From: David Levy

To: Vasik Rajlich

Cc: Jaap van den Herik, Hiroyuki Iida, Larry Kaufman

Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:07:52 AM

Subject: Re: Fruit and Rybka

 

Hi Vas,

 

I would appreciate a reply.

 

Best,

David

 

 


  

From: Vasik Rajlich

Subject: Re: Fruit and Rybka

To: "David Levy"

Cc: "Jaap van den Herik"  "Hiroyuki Iida", Larry Kaufman"

Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 8:33 AM

 

Hi David,

 

I'm not really sure what to say. The Rybka source code is original. I used lots of ideas from Fruit, as

I have mentioned many times. Both Fruit and Rybka also use all sorts of common computer chess ideas.

 

Aside from that, this document is horribly bogus. All that "Rybka code" isn't Rybka code, it's just

someone's imagination.

 

Best regards,

 

Vas

 


 

From: David Levy

To: Vasik Rajlich

Cc: Jaap van den Herik , Hiroyuki Iida, Larry Kaufman

Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 12:12:02 PM

Subject: Re: Fruit and Rybka

 

Hi Vas,

 

Another question.

 

You say that the Rybka source code is original. But which version(s) of Rybka do you have in mind

when saying this? In particular, was the Rybka 1 source original?

 

Best,

David

 

 


 

From: Vasik Rajlich

Subject: Re: Fruit and Rybka

To: "David Levy"

Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 11:36 AM

 

Hi David,

 

I can also go through all of this stuff with you by telephone, that might be more efficient. My home

phone number is xx xx xx xx xxxx If you call, please do it on a weekday and before 14:00 CET.

 

Best regards,

Vas

 

 


 

From: David Levy

To: Vasik Rajlich 

Sent: Sunday, February 6, 2011 2:38 PM

Subject: Re: Fruit and Rybka

 

Hi Vas

 

I prefer to work by email.

 

I will have some more questions for you in due course.

 

Best regards,

David

 


 

 

  1. On February 19, 2011 is the release of the frontal attack by David Levy on the ChessVibes site: Attack of the clones
  2. February 23, 2011 start of the investigation without Rajlich.

  

 


 

From: David Levy

To: Vasik Rajlich

Cc: Larry Kaufman

Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 5:39:11 AM

Subject: Fw: Open letter to the ICGA about the Rybka-Fruit issue

 

Hi Vas,

 

You will have received the following open letter addressed to the ICGA.

 

As you know the ICGA has very recently set up a forum for the discussion by experts of allegations of

cloning and of the creation of derivative games programs. The "Fruit-Rybka" case will be discussed in this

forum.

 

I am writing to you in order to invite you to join the forum (by visiting www.icga.wikispaces.com) and

there to present whatever arguments you wish in your defence against these allegations. You will be

given the opportunity to reply to any of the forum postings you wish. When the forum Secretariat decides

that the matter has been sufficiently fully discussed and that you have been given every reasonable

opportunity to present your defence, the Secretariat will prepare a document for the ICGA, summarizing

the evidence and the conclusions of the forum, including recommendations as to what course of action

if any the ICGA should adopt. I will then submit their document to you and invite you to make any further

comments you wish, prior to discussing the document and its recommendations within the ICGA executive.

You will thereby be given every opportunity to defend yourself against these allegations and to present

any counter-arguments you may wish.

 

I very much hope that you will avail yourself of this opportunity to make a full and open statement as to

your position regarding the allegations, including any justification you feel that you have for whatever

use you have made of the program Fruit.

 

Should you have any questions about the procedure described above, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Kind regards,

David Levy

[ICGA President]

 


 

From: Vasik Rajlich

To: David Levy 

Cc: Larry Kaufman 

Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 10:44 PM

Subject: Re: Open letter to the ICGA about the Rybka-Fruit issue

 

Hi David,

 

thanks for the email, I will think about it.

 

Best regards,

Vas

 

 


 

From: David Levy

To: Vasik Rajlich 

Cc: Larry Kaufman

Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2011 2:20 AM

Subject: Re: Open letter to the ICGA about the Rybka-Fruit issue

 

Hi Vasik,

 

How you respond is of course up to you. However, I would strongly advise you to consider the following.

 

The nearest analogy I can think of to the process that has now started is a trial in a court of law. There

are some important similarities between the current process and a court case. One of the similarities is that,

if the defendant refuses to offer a defence when given a proper and full opportunity to do so, the case

can only be judged on the basis of the prosecution evidence, and the onus is then only upon the

prosecution to make its case.

 

The judgment of the forum or court in such circumstances will then be based solely on the prosecution

case. If you have any defence to offer in denial of the case being presented against you, the time to offer

it is during the evidential and argument part of the process, not after that stage has been completed.

 

If you do not wish to attempt to disprove or deny any of the evidence being submitted against you, but

instead accept that the evidence is true and instead wish to argue either [a] that what you have done

was not wrong; or [b] in mitigation of what you have done, then again the best time to present such

arguments is when you can do so to the "jury", which in this process is the forum. If you make no such

attempt to the forum then you can hardly expect the forum to base its conclusions and recommendations

on anything but the evidence and arguments offered against you.

 

If that were to happen, and you were then, after the Secretariat submits its report, to offer your defence

or plea of mitigation to the ICGA, how can you expect anyone, including the ICGA itself, to come to any

conclusion other than you are not willing to be judged by your peers, and to draw the obvious conclusion?

 

Finally, the time to plead with the "final arbiter" (the ICGA) will be when the forum discussion comes to

and end and the Secretariat has submitted its report on the forum's deliberations, conclusions and

recommendations to the ICGA. You can not set your own time table for any of this. The analogy you

should consider is a court of law, where the defendant is not the one who chooses the dates of the

hearings.

 

I very much hope that you will take on board what I have said, and reflect wisely.

 

Kind regards,

David

 


 

From: Vasik Rajlich

Subject: Re: Open letter to the ICGA about the Rybka-Fruit issue

To: "David Levy"

Cc: "Larry Kaufman"

Date: Wednesday, March 2, 2011, 7:21 AM

 

Hi David,

 

I prefer to plead my case with the final arbiter rather than with the accusers. 

 

Re. the schedule - could we have the final hearings in October or November? I'd  like to prepare

properly, and my schedule is very full until the first week in  October.

 

Best regards,

Vas

 


 

From: David Levy
To: Vasik Rajlich
Cc: Larry Kaufman; Hiroyuki Iida; Jaap van den Herik; Johanna Hellemons;
Remi Coulom; Harvey Williamson; Robert Hyatt; Mark L.
Sent: Fri, May 13,2011 9:15:14 AM
Subject: ICGA investigation

 

Hi Vas,

 

The ICGA investigation panel has completed its investigation and the report of the  panel's Secretariat

is attached. Up to now you have not responded positively to my invitations to respond to the various

allegations that have been made against you during the course of this investigation.

 

I am  now requesting you to do so. You will find all of the linked documents  referred to in the report

available to you on the wiki, for which you need to register if you wish to read those documents.

 

In due course the ICGA will consider the attached report, together with any defence,counter-evidence

or pleas for mitigation that you may care to offer. 

 

Anything that you wish the ICGA to take  into consideration when doing so must reach me not later

than one month from today,i.e. June14th. 

 

I should  emphasize here that the ICGA is interested only in one question, namely whether or not you

violated the ICGA tournament rules by failing to declare the true provenance of Rybka in your entry

form submissions for the various World Computer Chess Championships in which the program  participated.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Kind regards,

 

David Levy
[President - ICGA]

 

 


 

From: Vasik Rajlich
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation
To: "David Levy"
Cc: "Larry Kaufman", "Hiroyuki Iida","Jaap van den Herik", "Johanna Hellemons","Remi Coulom",

Harvey Williamson, "Robert Hyatt", "Mark L."
Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 5:10 PM

 

Hi David,

 

AFAIK I  always just entered Rybka in your tournaments via email. Can you please send me the

rule(s) in question?

 

Best regards,

Vas


 

From: David Levy
To: Vasik Rajlich
Cc:  Larry Kaufman; Hiroyuki Iida; Jaap van den Herik; Johanna Hellemons; Remi Coulom; Harvey Williamson; 
Robert Hyatt; Mark L.
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:20:00 PM
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation

 

Hi Vas,

 

The rule in question is quoted in the report I sent you. It is also published in the ICGA Journal, and on

the tournament web sitesand the ICGA web site. For example:

 

http://www.grappa.univ-lille3.fr/icga/files/rules-2010.pdf

 

Best regards,

 

David


 

From: Vasik Rajlich
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation
To: "David Levy"
Cc: "Larry Kaufman", "Hiroyuki Iida", "Jaap van den Herik", "Johanna Hellemons","Remi Coulom",
"Harvey Williamson", "Robert Hyatt", "Mark L."
Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 5:52 PM

 

Hi David,

 

I'd say that Rybka is in compliance with these rules, although some of the terms are kind of vague. 

 

Re. "playing nearly all moves the  same",  there are statistics available about  this.

 

Here is a ponderhit table for some versions of Rybka, Fruit and Crafty.

 

For comparison, here is a ponderhit table for the most similar engines in different families:

 

 

Best regards,

 

Vas


 

From: David Levy
To: Vasik Rajlich
Cc: Larry Kaufman; Hiroyuki Iida; Jaap van den Herik; Johanna Hellemons; Remi Coulom;
Harvey Williamson; Robert Hyatt; Mark L.
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 6:58:05 PM
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation

 

Hi Vas,

 

I'm afraid that your latest reply misses the point. The rule in question is tournament rule 2, at page 4

of the link I sent you.

 

Kind regards,

 

David

 


  

From: Vasik Rajlich
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation
To: "David Levy"
Cc: "Larry Kaufman", "Hiroyuki Iida", "Jaap van den Herik", "Johanna Hellemons", "Remi Coulom",
"Harvey Williamson", "Robert Hyatt", "Mark L."
Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 6:06 PM

 

Hi David,

 

here is the text I find at your link:

 

" Each program must be the original work of the entering developers. Programming  teams
whose code is derived from or including game-playing code written by others must  name all
other authors, or the source of such code, in the details of their submission  form. Programs
which are discovered to be close derivatives of others (e.g., by playing nearly all moves the
same), may be declared invalid by the Tournament Director after seeking expert advice. For
this purpose a listing of all game-related code running on the system must be available on
demand to the Tournament Director.  "

 

I addressed the "playing nearly all moves the same" phrase.

 

Best regards,

 

Vas

 

 


 

From: David Levy
To: Vasik Rajlich
Cc: Larry Kaufman; Hiroyuki Iida; Jaap van den Herik; Johanna Hellemons; Remi Coulom;
Harvey Williamson; Robert Hyatt; Mark L.
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 7:16:20 PM
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation

 

Hi Vas,

 

"playing nearly all moves the same" is just one example of how a competing program might be discovered

to be close derivatives of others. There are various other ways, as you know, including your own

suggestion referred to in the report.

 

And you have not addressed "Programming teams  whose code is derived from or including game-playing

code written by others must name all other authors, or the source of such code, in the details of their

submission form."

 

Kind regards,

 

David

 


 

From: Vasik Rajlich
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation
To: "David Levy"
Cc: "Larry Kaufman", "Hiroyuki Iida", "Jaap van den Herik", "Johanna Hellemons", "Remi Coulom",
"Harvey Williamson", "Robert Hyatt", "Mark L."
Date: Friday, May 13, 2011, 6:27 PM

 

Hi David,

 

Rybka has does not "include game-playing code written by others", aside from  standard exceptions which

wouldn't count as 'game-playing'. The vague phrase "derived from game-playing code written by others"

also does  not in my view apply to Rybka.

 

Best regards,

 

Vas

 


 

From: David Levy
To: Vasik Rajlich
Cc: Larry Kaufman; HiroyukiIida; Jaap van den Herik; Johanna Hellemons; Remi Coulom;
Harvey Williamson; Robert Hyatt; Mark L.
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 9:46:53 PM
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation

 

Hi Vas,

 

So what are you saying about the evidence submitted to the panel?

 

Kind regards,

 

David

 


   
From: Vasik Rajlich
Subject: Re: ICGA investigation
To: "David Levy"
Cc: "Larry Kaufman", "Hiroyuki Iida", "Jaap van den Herik", "Johanna Hellemons", "Remi Coulom",
"Harvey Williamson", "Robert Hyatt", "Mark L."
Date: Sunday, May 15, 2011, 9:27 AM

 

Hi David,

 

I'll probably address that stuff a little bit later.

 

Best regards,

 

Vas

 


   

From: David Levy
To: Vasik Rajlich
Cc: Larry Kaufman; Hiroyuki Iida; Jaap van den Herik; Johanna Hellemons; Remi Coulom;
Harvey Williamson; Robert Hyatt; Mark L.
Sent: Tue, May 31, 2011 3:51:50 PM
Subject: REMINDER - Deadline

 

Hi Vas,

 

Just to remind you, the deadline for your considered response is June 14th.

 

Best,

 

David

 


 

Hi Vas,

 

Just a final reminder that the deadline is on June 14th.

 

Kind regards,

 

David

 

 

 

Copyright « 2013 Ed Schr÷der